TRANSCRIPT: TCF Interview with Willem Avenant

On 16 August, The Checkered Flag spoke with Willem Avenant about his Dakar Rally début in 2025, the buildup to being accepted for the race, and his Decoding Dakar series.

The full transcript of the interview is available below. Some text has been altered from the actual dialogue to improve readability.

An article on the interview can be read here.

Transcript

TCF: It’s been about a month since you were accepted for Dakar. Has it sunk in yet that you’re actually going to be there in just a couple of months?

WA: [chuckles] It has, but some days I still have to pinch myself a little bit. A lot of people talk, decide in their middle age, they want to do Dakar. For me, it’s been like a childhood dream, literally since I can remember, since four or five—not four, let’s say six years old. It’s like, I want to do that. In the last, I would say, fifteen years, ever since I’ve been a grown up, it’s always formed part of my life. I was like, “Okay, if I want to do this, I actually have to get going. I actually have to do it. It’s not just going to happen.”

So now, having that acceptance letter, and I’m sure many other people would agree that when you get that feeling of elation, is crazy. I was like, “Wow, I’m going,” and like you said, “It’s four months, dude.” I’m like, “Huh?”

So definitely excited but also nervous, but it has sunk in very much.

TCF: Would you say you were expecting to be accepted so soon?

WA: I was really pushing hard to get accepted because for me, 2025 has always been ‘the year’. I had really hoped that I can get accepted and I think that through Decoding Dakar, what I wanted to do was, I wanted to record the steps of how to get there. I consulted with the ASO all along the way and with my team and I was like, “Okay, if we were to paint the perfect picture, how would that look? What steps should I follow?”

You and I, we haven’t spoken personally, but you know I went to Abu Dhabi as well. That was on recommendation of the ASO and recommendation of the team being like, “Okay, you need to do this if you want to be accepted.” I am eternally grateful that I went, because looking at the route, a lot of the riding we’re going to do in the Empty Quarter is going to be in the same area. It’ll be on the Saudi side, but the same area of the desert.

So I was definitely, like, “nervous” to get accepted. There were those nightmares of, ‘Oh, what am I going to do if I don’t get accepted?’ I didn’t know that I was going to 100% get accepted. I think none of us knows. But hearing that news, getting that letter was definitely a big relief because then it changed the narrative from “Will or can Willem get to Dakar?” to “Willem is going to Dakar,” and that helped me mentally a lot.

TCF: On the topic of Abu Dhabi, what was it like doing a World Rally-Raid Championship race for the first time?

WA: I’ve raced rallies since 2017 all over the world, but I’ve never done a World Rally-Raid Championship round. The short answer is that it was an eye-opener from the level of competition. The level of competition was so high and so serious and one of the things that was a big takeaway for me from Abu Dhabi was that anybody involved in the organisation would refer to any non-FIM or non-World Rally-Raid Championship race as an amateur rally. And being at these events, I see why. I understand why there’s such a big difference in approach.

In Abu Dhabi, if you crashed, you had an air ambulance with two advanced life support doctors, not medics, by your side within twelve minutes. In many cases, the organisation would know that you’ve crashed before you knew you crashed because of all the instruments on the bike. To put that in perspective, in New York, it would take an ambulance or a 911 call fifteen minutes to get to you, and in London, it’s longer. What that does is it allows us, and also with airbags, it allows people to push much, much harder.

For myself, I was in a very interesting position because I am not a professional racer but I’m also not an amateur. There’s no man’s land in this grey area between a professional and an amateur. That put me in a weird position because I wasn’t in Abu Dhabi to race. I was in Abu Dhabi to finish and to qualify. One of my team-mates was there to podium. He’s like, “I’m here to podium. I will accept the risks,” which I wouldn’t. I have a wife, I have a family, I have a daughter. I don’t care about the podium. I care about the process and about finishing. I think the biggest difference for me between FIM and any other race was that in that case, you’re in the minority. If you go to any other race, we’re all there for the camaraderie, we’re all there for the experience of rally, whereas if you’re in a World Rally-Raid Championship round, you’re there to compete. It’s a question of, “Why are you here if you’re not willing to push the limits?”

So that was an eye-opener for me, but at the same time I learned so much. There’s so much collective experience at these races. There’s people that’ve been racing twenty years. One of my team-mates has completed Dakar in every conceivable category—car, bike, quad, side-by-side, and truck. When you get to spend time with somebody like that, just for experience’s sake, it was a very, very interesting experience, not something I was used to, but I’m also glad that I did because now I have a much better frame of reference for Dakar.

TCF: Given that Abu Dhabi was mostly in desert, how different was it compared to what you’re used to riding here in the deserts here in North America or wherever?

WA: For the readers or listeners, I do spend a lot of time in South Africa and then I spend a lot of time in the U.S. and in Mexico. I’m the race director for the Baja Rally. I knew Abu Dhabi would be 100% sand and dunes, so I trained for it, I prepared for it very specifically, and I was ready for it.

So that was fine, but no amount of training can prepare you for the vastness of the Empty Quarter. It is insane. Like, there is nothing. I think that was the biggest thing for me is like, you come over a dune and you come over a dune and you come over a dune and every time, it’s literally an ocean of sand and there’s nothing. There’s not a town, there’s no people, there’s not even camels. It was really nice to know that the organisation knows where you are at all times, but at the same time, I wish I had time to stop and take photos and be like, “Wow, I’m here.” The only negative thing of Abu Dhabi is I never got time to take pictures. [laughs]

It is a sea of sand. Abu Dhabi specifically, the racing there is famous for being dangerous for two reasons. Number one, the drops of the dunes are pretty severe and they never stop. After day four, the drops were so intense that at some point I was like, “When does this stop, because it feels like all that’s happening is I’m going down. When am I going up?” The blind dunes are insane in Abu Dhabi.

The other thing in Abu Dhabi that was interesting is that, and I’ve been cautioned by that before I went so I knew what to expect, but the sand consistency in Abu Dhabi changes constantly. You have red sand, you have white sand, you have yellow sand, and they all work differently. You would go through the different types of sand at least two or three times a day, so you could never really trust the bike or the sand because it kept on changing underneath you. That was interesting. Very, very interesting, but honestly, I really loved it. I really enjoyed getting to know and understand a little bit more about racing in the Middle East.

To me, that was amazing, learning about the culture, understanding a little bit more about how the United Arab Emirates work, and meeting local people there. They were so friendly and so happy to just have people there that it was a really special experience.

I wasn’t surprised by the dunes. Let’s say that it wasn’t the dunes that impressed me, it was also the people and the culture that really, really impressed me. It was really fun.

TCF: Even though finishing was your main goal rather than trying to finish well, did you feel any sort of pressure to do well and knowing that was your main shot to be accepted for Dakar?

WA: No, and you know what? That was a very interesting thing that happened. Personally, I’m very good at deciding on a goal and sticking to it. I would say that I had ridden on purpose well below my capabilities because I wanted to finish and not get injured. My personal goals for Abu Dhabi was to finish without penalties which, unfortunately, in the very first speed zone, I got a one-minute penalty because I didn’t hear the ERTF buzzer. That shot that, but I got no waypoint penalties or anything else, so that was the first thing

The second thing was to not crash. I did have one crash where I literally just lost concentration for five seconds, which really highlights how dangerous the riding in the dunes are. Literally over five days, I lost concentration for five seconds. I know exactly why I crashed. That was how intense it was that you couldn’t stop focusing. At some point during the race, there was a conversation because again, I consulted the ASO and was like, “Listen guys, what’s the deal at Abu Dhabi? Do I just have to finish or do I have to finish well?” They were like, “You have to finish.” In the middle of the race, listening to other riders, everybody’s talking about speed and pace.

While, to your question, I didn’t feel “pressure”, I went into the race with the mindset that all I have to do is finish. I got there and everybody’s like, “Ooh, you have to go faster. You have to go faster.” At that point, I did feel a little bit anxious because I was like, “Well, I thought we just have to finish and now you’re telling me I have to go faster? Why?”

At that point, I decided to stick to my plan. Because of racing through the years, I’ve learned to stick to my plan rather than listening to other people, but there was definitely not pressure as much as being a little bit anxious because I was worried that I might not ‘go fast enough.’ The difference in Abu Dhabi to other races, and this is conjecture, I cannot state this as fact, is Abu Dhabi didn’t have cutoffs. They had a very strict minimum time to do a stage. My interpretation of that is that the ASO or Dakar organisers implement these cutoffs as that is your max time, because if you cannot make it in the max time, you’re not going to be able to do Dakar. 

For me, the max time was like, “Okay, that’s all that I respected and worried about.” I tried to drown out the noise, which was difficult because as I said, the level of competition was pretty high. A lot of people were gunning for it. The ASO has a rule, I’m sure you know about that, for the point system that if you make it in 1.5 times, 1.5 times slower than the fastest guy, you do get extra points towards Dakar. A lot of people were pushing for that. For me, because I had a lot of points from other races, I was okay just finishing. 

It’s my theory that because in Dakar, you don’t have a cutoff for the end of the stage, you just have to finish, I believe that they implement the cutoff in Abu Dhabi to be a natural selector. I finished well within the cutoff; most days, I finished one to two hours before the cutoff. I was always happy with that. I think I would have been a little bit more stressed if I finished on the cutoff times. 

TCF: Speaking of the application process, with how convoluted it all seemed at first glance, hence why you’re doing Decoding Dakar, would you say that now that you’re experiencing yourself, the process isn’t as confusing as you expected or is it still kind of messy at times?

WA: Oof, that’s a tough question. I think it would be difficult for me to answer honestly because I’ve been involved in Dakar—or not involved, but been following it, for so long. I think that the application process in itself is not too difficult. I mean, I’m talking about submitting your application as opposed to the journey. I think that I was extremely happy and just impressed with how much care the ASO takes with potential applicants. There’s a direct connection.

I spoke to Ronan Valverde, who is the competitor relations officer, a lot. I met him in Mexico personally, we spoke, and I really felt that they really take care in helping you through the process by making it very transparent as to what you need to do. I do think that initially, it feels a bit messy, and then as the process evolves, it gets easier.

TCF: Even then, if you’re the ASO, what changes would you make to the programmes if you could?

WA: [laughs] Wow, I would have to think about that. That is a difficult one. I think that the flow of the website is the big thing. I think that if let’s say, I could have a magic wand and I might be in charge, I think a good way to do it would be to say we have a first time Dakar entry portal, which is almost like a separate website for first timers, and then anybody else that has done Dakar before, you go to this website. That would kind of, I think, declutter a lot of it. But, you know, on balance, the ASO I think do a really good job at putting it in place. In all fairness, Dakar’s been running since 1979, or ’78, they’re like the gold standard in the process. I don’t think that I can really criticise it that much, but I would say that a separate portal for Dakar first-timers might be a good idea. That would be my constructive criticism, but I don’t want it to come over like I’m dissing their process. [chuckles]

TCF: Once you get this upcoming Dakar out of the way, do you plan on continuing Decoding Dakar?

WA: Yes. My plan would be for the readers that don’t know about what Decoding Dakar is… I spoke to somebody today who said for fifty people he knows, who said they’re going to go to Dakar, two made it. In my personal experience, that’s very similar: so many people tell me, “I’m going to do Dakar,” and then they don’t. That was very important for me, that when I say I’m going to go and do Dakar, and that’s where the pressure from qualifying came in, I wanted it to be, “Yes, I’m going.”

I think for me, the legacy of what I want to achieve with Decoding Dakar is, after Decoding Dakar, we will have a website running. That website, I would like to become the go-to place for people preparing for Dakar. The way that I put it on my website is that it would be a roadmap, so if you are really serious, like truly serious about Dakar, these are the steps to follow, this is how much it will cost you, and this is how you go about it. It would kind of just be like putting what I’m documenting this year into an easy, digestible format that people can just go to and at a glance, see the steps, see the timelines, and hopefully that will help other riders get there. That’s my goal. That’s what I want to achieve this year.

TCF: Looking ahead to January, what are your thoughts on the route for 2025 and all the new rules and features they’re adding?

WA: Honestly, I’m not going to lie, the biggest thing for me is the penultimate, second to last 480-kilometre dune stage. I think that keeps me up at night now, even already before I’m going. For me, having been to Abu Dhabi, in Abu Dhabi, our stages were 250 to 280 kilometres and it was tough. It was really hard. Having been to Namibia, riding in Namibia, I can now say with 100% confidence, 480 Ks in the dunes is going to be an insane challenge on a good day.

To do that, on the second to last stage of Dakar, when your bikes and your bodies are done… I get goosebumps just talking about it because it’s like, I can’t not finish that stage. I think putting it in the second-to-last stage is one of those really scary things. In the past, it was a question of, you have to make it to the rest stage or a rest day, then after the rest day, you’re going to make it to the finish. That’s always been the Dakar recipe. Now, you have to make it through the rest stage, and then you have to make it through the second to last stage, and then you can finish. And that’s really intimidating. I think that’s number one.

I’m very excited for the Chrono Stage. With Dakar being in one single country, it’s something that I’ve never really… I had wished that when I do Dakar, it can traverse borders again. I like Dakar to be a multi-country race, but I just realised that it’s not going to happen anytime soon, so I might as well do it. But with it being a single country race, I think doing stuff like the Chrono Stage is going to put us back on the track of the Dakar of old, making people more equal, bringing it back to the roots. I think that this Chrono Stage, they’re talking about 950 kilometres over two days, it is going to be mixed terrain, it’s not going to be just dunes like it was last year. That stuff, all of the changes I’m excited about.

I’m very excited about the split course on five stages with not having cars and trucks behind us. As the bikers would know, that’s your worst nightmares. Once those trucks catch you, it’s really, really difficult to ride. I think every biker really welcomes the changes of the split courses.

And the mass—I don’t know if it’s mass (moss) or mass (mahss)—but the mass start in the last stage, that’s going to be fun as well. I think that, again, throws us back into the Dakar of the ’80s. That’ll also be super exciting.

TCF: What would you say is your main goal for Dakar? Is it like Abu Dhabi where it’s just to finish or is there more to it?

WA: There is more to it. I train people to go to Dakar. I train people how to navigate. I always say that I am not a trained motorcycle rider instructor, because I’m not. Half the time, I just survive on the bike. I’m not a qualified racer. What I know, I’ve learned by riding bikes. That’s very different to somebody, especially in the U.S., that grows up desert racing their whole life.

That’s part of why I love rally. You can have an edge if you can navigate. With navigation, that is my forte and I’ve trained and taught many people that had finished Dakar who did their first roadbooks with me and I’ve never gone. So I think it’s very important that finishing is one of those things to just cement me in my position as somebody that trains people. I want to have Dakar behind my name, but more so, like I said in the beginning, it’s a lifelong journey for me.

For me, it is to have fun. As everybody that’s reading this would know, it’s my life savings. It’s everything that I’ve worked for. If I’m not going to have fun, there’s no point in doing it. Number one is to have the best time of my life while making sure that I finish.

Wherever I finish, I finish. I’ve seen so many people’s Dakars being destroyed by having an idea, thinking they should be top seventy or top eighty or top fifty or top thirty, it doesn’t matter, and then they get to Dakar and they’re not close to where they thought they were going to be. I’ve witnessed firsthand how that destroyed Dakars for friends of mine where they just didn’t enjoy it because they were so upset by their position.

So I think that for this year, it’s to finish. If I go back, you know, then I would have a reference if I finish top fifty or top hundred or top eighty, it doesn’t matter. I know going back that, “Okay, now I know what bracket I fall in under Dakar terms,” and then I can have a clearly defined goal of saying, “Okay, if I finish top eighty, next one I want to finish top seventy.”

But for my first Dakar, it’s to enjoy it and to make lifelong memories.

TCF: So in order to get there, what are the expenses going to be like and how do you plan to cover it?

WA: [chuckles] That’s a big part of Decoding Dakar. My go-to number for anybody that is playing the serious game is $100,000 U.S. You can certainly do it for cheaper. However, because I have one shot at it, I decided to play the game of minimising my risk of not finishing. For me, that was very important because I want to make sure that I’ve done everything possible so that if I don’t finish, that’s not because of something that was in my control.

While you could probably do cheaper, I think a realistic number is $100,000… It sounds like a lot of money and it’s not something that makes sense. People would be like, “How can you spend $100,000 on a race?” It doesn’t, but it’s like with anything that is a passion or a drive, it doesn’t make sense, it’s something that is part of you that you just have to do. People spend money on other things that sometimes don’t make sense. Realistically, I’m planning to cover it through savings but also fundraising. There were a lot of added expenses and stuff that I didn’t necessarily think about. Abu Dhabi, I did not budget for because I had believed that I had enough money to cover everything, and then Abu Dhabi came up and so I was like, “Okay, you should do Abu Dhabi.” I was like, “Okay, if they’re telling me to do it, I should do it.” But at the same time, I didn’t plan for that in my budget.

The fundraising effort will be… There’s three ways basically, more than three, but one is we have our… If there’s anybody in any sphere for corporate sponsorship, that obviously we’re open to and I would love to find somebody to support me in that in any brand. But the chances of that happening is always quite small if you’re an amateur, so the other side then is to go the crowdfunding route. By saying that the value we contribute is Decoding Dakar, as we’re bringing Decoding Dakar to the world, we hope that people can appreciate that by donating.

I have a GoFundMe, but over and above the GoFundMe, we will be selling very unique t-shirts that is designed by a very upstanding artist in South Africa and he’s making a special Decoding Dakar limited t-shirt for Dakar. They won’t be cheap, but I feel that if you’re not buying a shirt, you’re supporting Decoding Dakar. Because of that, you’re kind of getting a shirt because you’re supporting.

Lastly, and that’s something that I’m very excited about, we’re still working on it, it’s not 100% finished yet, but that is to have a Dakar quiz competition where we will have a really, really big prize. I’m talking a prize in excess of $10,000, where it will be a collection of really high-end motorcycle products. You will buy a ticket to compete in the event, and the event would be normal Dakar questions and trivia, but also then there would be predictions along Dakar. A simple example is, “What do you think what stage is going to be the most difficult for me? What stage do you think I’m going to enjoy the most? What is going to be the maximum temperature during Dakar this year? What’s going to be the toughest stage?” All of that stuff, we will roll into it and we’ll make it an interactive thing where people can take part throughout Dakar. And then after that, I will draw the winner.

So those are the fundraising efforts at the moment. Anybody that’s reading this, if they can support me, literally every single dollar helps everyone.

TCF: Before we wrap this up, is there anything else you’d like to add?

WA: [laughs] I would like to thank you, man. I think that it’s really, really, really important that people like you get the word out. The work you guys do are often overlooked because people are just always like, they read something and they just think it happened to be there. As journalists, for me, I have a deep appreciation for the work you do because at rallies, you are always the first guys that’s up and you’re always the last guys that go to bed. You are our mouthpiece to the world.

Very few rally or sportspeople are good at social media or good at these type of things. Without you guys, we wouldn’t be able to get our message out there.

So personally, I would just like to thank you for doing what you’re doing and helping us share the word of rally because without you guys, nobody would even know about us.

Interview on YouTube